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The spies have it

June 23, 2013

By ROBERT OLSON Over the course of the last month, the National Security Agency has been involved in several major controversies involving possible domestic spying abuses....

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(31)

Steiner

Jun-23-13 6:52 AM

Hey Bob,help me out here. you say digital privacy is influenced by tech literacy which elderly people have a hard time developing. So the govt will know more about them if they lack tech know how ? Am I missing something ? All we have to do is minimize digital usage and the govt meta heads will have to use reverse logic and guess. Now one could say that the bill of rights is a suicide document then as it tries to restrict govt spying. Hey bob, the world we got was not obtained with the use of computers and data, but the other way around. The meta heads were informed of the boston bomnbers and goofed that up. we are to believe that the collection of all this data on ordinary citizens is OK ? are you mad , Bob ? Or just a meta head ?Himmler would be proud of you, bob.

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Steiner

Jun-23-13 7:51 AM

Hey Bob, everything i was taught in school growing up has been turned upside down by the attitude you display here. I see a chef on TV begging for forgivenss for saying mere words !She did not blow up anything, the liberal mind just self detonated. I remember the shock of many when it was revealed that coucescu had many TV cameras spying on its citizens. Checkpoint charlie too. All of this could be considered OK now , right Bob ? The govt had to have its meta data sets.Bob, pretty soon voting or merely expressing an opinion like this will be considered illegal. the govt knows all from its meta data .who knows, I could be arrested for my right wing , conservative views. everyone here knows i am not a fan of the govt or liberals in general. The DC area is nothing but a hotbed of liberals now. All OK , the founding fathers must have been extremists then, right Bob ?

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Dcronlg

Jun-23-13 8:34 AM

Steinerdzzz...Himmler would be proud of you, as your being online and digital yourself (you didn't really believe your IP address, which you use with every comment posting you make, wasn't already collected, did you???) you are a true patriot to the cause.

Keep commenting, keep your antigovernment ranting a-going -- keep that IP address populating their collection tables.

Attaboy.

ttaboy.

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judeye

Jun-23-13 8:45 AM

Excellent, very informative article.

Yes, both parties, most of our elected officials voted in favor of this type of surveillance.

To me, the question comes down to what, if any, of our privacy are we willing to give up, in the name of National Security?

They are saying that this Prism program prevented many terrorist attacks. Now I am not sure I believe them..but say it is true. Would we be willing to let an attack get through, possibly causing many deaths and injuries, if the only way we could have prevented it was by violating privacy rights?

Time to drop all the partisanship and start to have Real discussions on this issue. The ways we can be 'spied' on are only going to increase as technology grows. Who would have ever thought that drones were possible, let alone spy on us, ten years ago?

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American

Jun-23-13 9:53 AM

"To me, the question comes down to what, if any, of our privacy are we willing to give up, in the name of National Security?" To me the answer comes down to one word, NONE. While I know that's not realistic under the sitting and the former Presidents it is still the best way. Who can trust these agencies with this information any longer? I used to trust and believe in my government even after Vietnam, but then along came the non-Patriot Act as signed by Bush and the increase in it under Obama. Along with the IRS, Benghazi, Fast And Furious and many other things in the last 5 years. Trust these people not a chance. Especially if you look at the leaders in NYS and NYC. It's just going to get worse.

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joew

Jun-23-13 8:01 PM

Judeye-the US Army was using drones back in the 40's,that's a bit more than 10 years ago. A little known fact.

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DKexpat

Jun-23-13 9:38 PM

Congress passed FISA in 1978 after leaning of illegal excesses by NSA, FBI, CIA and the Army's ASA. Under Section 215 of the Patriot Act (2001), the govm't no longer needs to claim a foreign power is involved. And under Section 702 of FISA, the USSC has never granted an exception to the Warrant requirement when the targeted foreign searches also result in mass gathering of US citizens' data.

So what's been going on might be legal under current law but also unconstitutional in re the Fourth Amendment's guarantee of a reasonable expectation of privacy.

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DKexpat

Jun-23-13 9:44 PM

The "secret court" - FISC - is supposed to search as "the country's conscience" and as a check and balance against governmental excesses.

But...from 1979 to 2002 it did not reject a single request, and in the past 5 years FISC has only rejected 2 out of nearly 8,600 requests.

Anyone else find that a bit disturbing?

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judeye

Jun-24-13 7:41 AM

Really we should have none of our privacy invaded for the sake of national security?

Should we give up the check lines at the airports? Should we refuse to show papers when asked, like we were while on a train going through Texas (guess who they were looking for).

I tend to agree with the least amount possible. But not sure that I would think that NO invasion of privacy..like those I mentioned for starters...would be good either.

That is what I mean when I said we need to have debates..discussions..on just what how much if any of our privacy should be given up for national security. None might be the answer...Then will we also not point figures if we are attacked?

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joew

Jun-24-13 7:44 AM

DKexpat-more than disturbing,scary actually. I suspect that sooner or later we'll find out that the NSA was used in the same way as the IRS, to listen in on the "opposition" so to speak! While my opinion might be somewhat extreme,the capability was and is available.

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Steiner

Jun-24-13 8:09 AM

hey judeye, not pointing fingers ? Do you not read your own posts ? You blame the NRA for every gun attack. You and cronig, big govt worshipper.The govt loves people like judeye and cronig, yes men , they are called. Now bob mentioned data heads etc. the data heads sunk the japanese economy. The quality control data heads . Accountants would fall into this same trap. If data collection was so good, how did boston bombers get missed by our beloved govt employees. I have never met such dullards or outright blockheads as data heads or accountants. They always live in the past, the future eludes them.And bob says we need more of them !cronig says nothing over and over , a true dullard.

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Steiner

Jun-24-13 8:20 AM

Judeye, why did the govt have to do this spying thing , on all Americans. because people like you, liberals say do not profile . You cant focus on Islamic groups. People like you are giving NYC a headache over their profiling islamic centers.Only the right wing, tea party and NRA can be profiled. So judeye, get passed the feminine discussion, unceasing discussion and admit to the real answer. Liberals made us do this. OBL gave plenty of warning he hated america and declared war on it, but the learned libs like judeye said, no profiling, thats discrimination ! Embrace the religion of peace, but not the gun owners or NRA . Now judeye wants to talk. It should have been done in thew 90's under Clinton, but he passed it off to Bush. Judeye, you lack critical thinking skills, like cronig.

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DKexpat

Jun-24-13 8:41 AM

joew, I agree. One reason FISA was passed in '78 was due to illegal CIA, US Army and NSA surveillance in the US of US citizens.

Previously, the Ford administration had argued for continuing warrantless surveillance. The lead attorney at the Justice Dept. for that? Antonin Scalia...yes, USSC Justice Scalia.

And these are the people that want me to register my firearms?

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American

Jun-24-13 10:18 AM

Yes judeye really. Profiling would be a big help at airports instead of invasive body searches of even the innocent. Profile and then surveil those that fit the profile. Maybe just surveil democrats, they don't seem to mind it. :)

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DKexpat

Jun-24-13 10:45 AM

Agree with American regarding the TSA. When my wife and I fly somewhere, she’s pulled aside – we’re up to six or seven times in a row – for the “swipes” or taken into the “back room” for the quite-personal pat-down.

Seriously, we now leave earlier for the airport than we had in the past because it takes us an additional 10-15 minutes to get through security.

She’s a petite middle-aged blonde – really fits the profile... A friend “in the know” told me people like her – “polar opposites” – are singled-out for searches so TSA isn’t accused of profiling.

Political correctness triumphs once again over common sense...

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joew

Jun-24-13 2:00 PM

El Al has it down to a fine art,love flying with them.

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American

Jun-24-13 4:02 PM

"SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) -- House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi has disappointed some of her liberal base with her defense of the Obama administration's classified surveillance of U.S. residents' phone and Internet records.""As she was attempting to argue that Obama's approach to citizen surveillance was an improvement over the policies under President George W. Bush, an activist, identified by the Mercury News as Mac Perkel of Gilroy, stood up and tried loudly to question her, prompting security guards to escort him out of the convention hall."""We're listening to our progressive leaders who are supposed to be on our side of the team saying it's OK for us to get targeted" for online surveillance, said Jana Thrift of Eugene, Ore. "It's crazy. I don't know who Nancy Pelosi really is." And they are just figuring this out now. The smart ones knew what this admin was from the very beginning.

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American

Jun-24-13 4:08 PM

"Is Obama abusing the Espionage Act?" "The Obama administration has charged twice as many people under the Espionage Act as every other president combined. When it comes to using the Espionage Act, here's the score: President Obama 7, Every Other President 3." Seems he's afraid of something like the world finding out about him.

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Steiner

Jun-25-13 7:27 AM

Hey posters , did you see the pattern from the libs ? Blame Bush and then adopt his very policies. Hey DK, i knew a blonde, size 5,very attractive and curvy that was repeatedly pulled over for extended pat downs, even with skin tight clothing on. Something is wrong here. PC is out of control.All of this from our govt. The govt is nuts. Do what Israeli Airline does.

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judeye

Jun-25-13 8:09 AM

American...profiling is ok??

So you think it is ok for the IRS to target the conservative groups for extra scrutiny?

Oh...fyi....it comes out now that progressive groups were also profiled by the IRS for extra scrutiny.

What does a terrorist look like?

Who would have searched someone like Tim McVeigh..he looked like the all american kid.

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judeye

Jun-25-13 8:12 AM

Steiner...you obviously do not read or understand my posts.

I have never blame the NRA for every gun death. I do blame them for using the flood of money to influence our lawmakers.

Have you ever looked up just how much money they spend trying to ensure the laws go the way they want.

Get the money out..all of it. Let the people's voice be heard..and not just drowned out my the sound of money.

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judeye

Jun-25-13 8:15 AM

DKexpat...and would she not make the perfect terrorist?

By the way, my husband is also pulled over almost every time we fly. He has been pulled over at the Peace Bridge in Canada after he told them he worked for the gas industry.

Yep they profile people and have quotas to fill.

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American

Jun-25-13 10:26 AM

I go to Canada at least 10 times a year and the only time I was pulled over going into Canada was when I admitted to having 2 bottles of whiskey I was taking up. I have been a regular going up there for 12 years now and have had no problems. I use all 3 crossings at times but mostly the Peace Bridge. So yes profile anyone who looks like they could fit the part of a terrorist.

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American

Jun-25-13 10:27 AM

Yes judeye I believe profiling is ok. Certain nationalities are more prone to be terrorists then others. Pattern our airport security after Israel's. Start profiling long before they get to the gate to board. No you can't get all of them and for home grown terrorist's it would not be as effective. But you live in a dream world if you think what this admin and the previous one put into place is going to stop them. As evidenced by Boston just to show one. I am against intruding on rights or freedoms in any way. These feel good laws they just keep taking away rights and freedoms with are just that, feel good laws. The non-Patriot Act and the un-SAFE ACT are the two worst that come to mind. We are not talking political groups of American origin jedeye but terrorists when we speak of profiling. Well terrorists and illegals. Maybe your husband looks like he needs to be profiled if it happens every time you cross.

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stangv8

Jun-25-13 2:17 PM

Back in the early 80’s, my supervisor got the opportunity to visit East Berlin. He said the people there were constantly monitored by the Stasi (secret police) through cameras. Modern day America has become what East Berlin was under communist rule but only worse. Now, they not only watch us, they monitor our written and spoken communications all in the name of National Security, just like the Stasi did.

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