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Conversion opposition

Precedent could be set on Cayuga plant decision

November 15, 2013

ALBANY — A group of central and western New York officials and utility ratepayers presented a letter to Gov....

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(30)

American

Nov-16-13 10:54 AM

"ECNY customers will pay a premium of 1.1¢/kWh for the green power but will save about 0.5¢/kWh by switching to ECNY service. The green power charge will appear on the customer's regular Niagara Mohawk bill" So you pay a premium for it and yet they claim you save.

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American

Nov-16-13 10:51 AM

Well I sure am glad you can afford to pay more for that "green energy" powered by bird killing (and ugly) windmills and landfill gases(trash gas)> I for one can't afford the higher cost. And you still get to pay NIMO for it also. Wow what a deal.

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judeye

Nov-16-13 8:13 AM

DarkStar...first I do not love all the layers of government. I just think they do serve a role.

Secondly, why does it have to be a government run plant if it uses alternative energy sources?

What skills were you looking for that were unavailable in this area? Did you bother to share that with the workforce development folks? I worked for decades helping people obtain new skills and build on the skills they already had. Transferable skills.

Yes I do think we should invest in training and retraining our workforce. Without that, people will be unable to obtain positions that will pay enough to support their families. We did it all the time..very successfully by the way.They already receive the money to do this by the way. As for the debate has been going on for a long time..where? when? I must have missed alternative energy ideas presented and discussed in any open forum. Please tell me where this occurred so that I might get the information from the meetings I mi

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judeye

Nov-16-13 8:01 AM

JR14063...Just signed up for Energy Cooperative of NY Renewable Electric Program. All renewable energy. Oh and if you do not like wind to be in the mix you can change to EnviroGen which is 100% Hydro.

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JohnPB

Nov-15-13 9:00 PM

Concerned,

If National Grid gets their way and installs the 5 mile project, then non of the WNY plants will run much....even if they burn natural gas. Not many of them are running now. Too much power flowing in from Canada, PA, Ohio etc. The grid will stay up no matter what. I am all for upgrading the transmission system WITHIN the state. If Dunkirk and Cayuga had a better means of getting their power to where the load is (NY City), then all of the WNY generators would be happy. No special deals required for anybody then. The whole problem with the WNY power market is the wholesale electricity prices are artificially kept low by NYISO bid Policies and transmission constraints.

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concerned

Nov-15-13 5:29 PM

Let this be a lesson to all "never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers"!!!! After NRG closes if the grid goes down " and it will" instead of having power restored in hours you will be counting days!!! Hope all the huggers like the dark!!!!

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JohnPB

Nov-15-13 4:56 PM

DarkStar,

Also, your plant was cycled down due to TRANSMISSION capacity constraints due to grid maintenance. It had nothing to do with plant availiablity. Dunkirk #2 has been running all of the time under a reliablity contract and there is also way more power plant capacity in WNY that is needed to satisfy load. It was just a matter of National Grid not being able to get the power to you. Also, you need to find out if your plant is part of the load shed program sponsored by the NYISO. Loads are paid money to shut down during high periods of high usage to minimize stress on the Transmission System. That could be the reason why you had a "brown out".

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JohnPB

Nov-15-13 4:47 PM

DarkStar,

You are incorrect. NRG is requesting a 20 year power contract with National Grid to pay for their plant. That power contract will be paid for by the rate payers of the state. That power contract will cost much more than the cost of market based power. The difference between the cost of market based power and power contract power will be paid directly by the rate payers. You can say that the government is not paying directly for this(we pay for that anyway), but National Grid will not be doing it without the arm twisting being done to them by the PSC. That is another issue that needs to be adressed. Either get rid of the NYISO or the PSC. You cant have two state entities that deal with the same power issues that have different objectives. NYISO....lowest cost possible no matter what, even at the cost of environmental issues. PSC......POLITICAL!!!!!!

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DarkStar

Nov-15-13 3:48 PM

JohnPB,

What you overlook is that windmills are subsidized by the government but this repowering will be paid for by the company not the taxpayer, which is vastly different.

It's ironic how many times the plant I work at how to power down this summer to help avoid brownouts at the same time I'm hearing those opposed to the repowering saying that the state doesn't need the power generated.

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JohnPB

Nov-15-13 3:45 PM

Here is what needs to happen: A power producer...not necesarily NRG, needs to build about an 80 MW Natural gas facility WITH THEIR OWN MONEY and compete in the market place in the Dunkirk area. No power contract! Then the National Grid 5 mile project to bring in Homer City PA power needs to go away! That is nothing but a huge leakage source to cause more WNY power generators to go out of business due to unfair competition.

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PhilJulian

Nov-15-13 3:36 PM

Does anyone really believe that electric bills will decrease if we get electricity from Pennsylvania? How can we justify buying electricity from another state when that state has softer environmental standards? How can we even consider rejection of a $500 million private sector investment? This whole issue just doesn't pass the "smell test".

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JohnPB

Nov-15-13 3:33 PM

Lets make it a FAIR market for everyone and stop bringing in power from sources that do not pay the RGGI fees. Every power generator should be paid in the market place. Things like wind mill subsidies hurt plants like Dunkirk and Cayuga, since they do not care what the market brings them. A large portion of their money is derived from subsidies and tax credits. If a repower deal of this magnitude goes through, then Dunkirk and Cayuga will be no different than a windmill!!!

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JohnPB

Nov-15-13 3:27 PM

We need to stop this garbage! Either we are going to stay with free market principals or we are not! You cant have this much capacity being paid outside of the market place and everyone else competing against each other when these plants take up so much of the viable load. If we are going to move away from the market place, then we need to do it all of the way for everyone and abolish the NYISO! There are alot more jobs at stake here than just Dunkirk jobs and tax base! Now that natural gas is competing against coal power economically, NRG has "found GOD" with saving the environment...what a joke!

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eastwood

Nov-15-13 3:06 PM

christopher......right on...this is the "hugger" way. Financed by the likes of bloomberg, soros and hollywood. People look up climategate and go to climatedepot dot com.....get educated! notice "huggers" say nothing about train wrecks with oil cars because of their campaign against keystone pipeline?

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rumblefish

Nov-15-13 1:37 PM

to stay open or close, the great debate for 2013-2014, but we have an equally, possible greater concern with the non-regulated costs to supply/delivery or if you will transporting of utilities to the consumer, as of now our utilities breaks down as 61%-transport/ delivery,39%-usage, so saving jobs is important, tax revenue is too but if NRG loses this decision, you can bet your last nickel that transportation/delivery charges will go through the ceiling, and as always the consumer will be holding the crappy end of the stick

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instigator

Nov-15-13 11:39 AM

national grid will win in the end, it's the amerikan way. $$$$$$$$

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Christopher

Nov-15-13 11:20 AM

Won't let me post URL's, apparently, but if you look up this group it would appear that the Sierra Group is behind most of it, and a few others like them, as well as a few politicians who may or may not be members of that, or are using them as a front for their being purchased by National grid and others who have a monetary reason for wanting these plants closed.

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Christopher

Nov-15-13 11:14 AM

*******ratepayersgroup****/ Try looking this up. Eye opening.

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Christopher

Nov-15-13 10:13 AM

I'd guess there's more than enough power for all of the county if that plant was running full-bore. That being said, it's not going to happen and the only way that plant stays open is if there's a way to counter-act the efforts of National Grid and it's supporters (bought and paid for politicians and wealthy stock holders), as well as the idiots who support an alternative energy source that either doesn't exist, uses more power than it generates or creates its own set of new environmental nightmares. (battery disposal anyone? Mercury in the new energy saving neon light bulbs? Food prices rising due to corn used for "gasohol"?) It's all about politics and money, people, not the environment.

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Steiner

Nov-15-13 9:09 AM

Hey bulldog, the engineers at the power plant know and tesla knew what the grid does. the plant in dunkirk, at full capacity has got to be enough to light up all of chautauqua county plus allegheny. there aint much industry or people.The big wires down the thruway feed into the NY grid. Follow them if you ever get bored. The huntley plant is now connected to the south towns.I dont think the plant will repower, there has been too much grid work done in the south towns. Plus, we get to experience a blackout if there is problems at huntley. Who would not want a black out ? Its 3rd world. thats where the dems and the green heads want us. The electrical world was figured out over a hundred years ago without the digital testing equipment we have now. People like judeye can only goof it up . they are ignorant of life and its energy needs.

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Steiner

Nov-15-13 9:00 AM

christopher, there is hope for you yet ! If we burn natural gas, we get to put more water vapor in the air. water is a huge green house gas ! Plus, we get rid of the trains in dunkirk, a pipeline would have to be installed. uhoh, i can see it now, anti pipeline people.they could explode, even though we have hundreds of thousands of miles of pipeline.Burn gas, light the thing and the thing will mind itself. or we could employ forced labor by the green heads to turn cranks to produce power. Let us see how long that will last. even a half horse 3450 motor is hard to start with a generator, you need a 2500 watter. If a battery bank is supplying it, you need at least 12 deep cycle marine batteries and a large inverter to handle the start up current. All impractical , yet all wanted by the green heads. I know this from personal experience folks. the lights dont dim in the house for nothing when the big motors start. Thank tesla for the substation a few miles away. JUDEYE , WHERE ARE YOU ?

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DarkStar

Nov-15-13 8:57 AM

Judeye,

Do you realize that thanks to all the layers of government you love few businesses want to locate in Western NY? Or are you saying that we should let the privately owned power plants close so we can open government owned manufacturing plants which might some day produce a solar panel or two?

Also where exactly do you see the massive "skilled" workforce? I've interviewed probably a thousand people from Chautauqua County for everything from laborer to management positions and very few could even remotely be called skilled (Oh wait, I'm sure we could raise taxes even further and open up more schools, with unionized teachers of course, to try and train our workforce right?)

Claiming there hasn't been a debate on this issue is disingenuous, since the discussion has been going on for a long time.

And finally, I've yet to hear you address why the Sierra Club, which regularly opposes windmill construction, is now saying we should replace the power plant with windmill.

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bulldog10

Nov-15-13 8:52 AM

I do not understand how the electric grid in the US works, maybe no one does. But I don't understand why local communities in this area don't demand that their electric comes from the Dunkirk plant. Does anyone know if the Dunkirk plant produces enough electric for all of Chautauqua county?

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Steiner

Nov-15-13 8:52 AM

oh my gosh, i agree with christopher again. the stupidity of the green folks ! yep they are stupid people. hey green heads, I work in industry, when one has a process running, one does not want an interruption in the power supply. In some cases the plant could explode, all on account of your green energy myths you believe in. This happend in europe and plants are moving out. Judeye, where are you ?green heads, where are you ? it would cost billions and billions to adjust the grid to take variable current from a host of independent producers. this from PBS and business journals. What could be simpler ? One huge plant, megawatts running. You only mind one plant. The wires , unless a storm hits just sit there. The libs like judeye want to mess up a beautiful system, invented by tesla and the guys, dk. those stupid activists.

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Christopher

Nov-15-13 8:52 AM

By the way, I support a conversion to the cleanest power on the planet, and the safest, Hydro Power. Sorry, but yes, it'll goof up some fishing streams. It'll also replace them with Lakes. It might even eliminate a minnow or two, so be it. It beats the alternative of every proposal the so-called environmentalists advocate, especially those stupid and inefficient windmills, a blot on the landscape. Solar power is limited in use, efficiency and scope. Any other power, especially shale oil and tar sands, uses more energy than the energy it supplies. Read a bit before speaking. Anyway, the Dunkirk plant, even if still burning coal, is cleaner by 10 than any other plant supplying National Grid. This is all about MONEY.

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